National, City, County, and local views of the author that affect our city. These points of view hopefully inspire, and challege readers to engage with insight on the topics.
Wednesday, February 29, 2012
Journal:City Council will sell Knox, Grove properties
The saga continues! Sell the house, so we can put
it behind us and move on!
82 comments:
Anonymous
said...
It stands to reason thats what Nelson wants and will get. Put the dam issue behind him. We need to get out of this business and stick to city business and let the housing councils fleece the taxpayers without city help. The last council was ignorant of how this system run and never did learn. Jennifer Stevensons presence on the council now shouldnt influence the fact the city needs to break from Augustine and sell their properties to bidders. Nelson needs to step down from the growth fund board seeing his presence is illegal and the council should be more aware of where that money is spent also.. We need a new city manager soon but chances of getting anyone experienced enough or with the courage to fill the job with all the cutthroats in this government hiring him/her.. Someone said we need a new planner but this young lady thats doing the job right now seems to be holding her own. Sometime in the near future we have to hear the final figure on firing Art.. Its got to be in the four or five hundred thousand range with everything figured in.. I read now that Nelson is supporting the governors pension rreform act.. With all the public servants he is supposed to represent up here in Ogdensburg it would seem like a poor choice for him to make... Oh of course they claim it wont affect anyone now owrking.. Think about that statement for a minute..
THE WAY IT WORKS or Goes down,,,,,,,,Have a home in bad shape in Ogdensburg and want to sell it !! Get aprroached by a realtor that has connections to St. Lawrence County Housing. In turn the realtor finds a buyer. Then introduces seller and buyer to SLCH program! All inspections and repairs done by St Lawrence Co. Housing agent AKA-Administrator and Deliever of such Grant.( This small group of 3 are-Realtor,Appraiser,Administer, Progran Delievery Agent, Inspector,and Contractor.) Seller pays only Realtor Fee, Inspections and any other fees that can be tucked in. Buyer gets home , remolding work and any extras paid by grant!! This sound COZY !!!So many jobs and titles.. but its only 3 people !!! Just fill in the names and get aquainted with the program!! $$$$$$ MAY WORK FOR YOU $$$$$$
Nelson was very desperate last night at the meeting. He wanted to squash Mr. Mrs Biggs presentation about Mr Oneil... Why?? I would think it would be interesting to hear from people.. Oh, I forgot.. Nr Nelson believes in silent meetings giving you five minutes and looking stupid at yu all...
This IS NOT an OPEN government at ALL -- it has become a DISGRACE . Mr Nelson is way over the line in terms of stifling citizens and demonstrates his inability and limitations and insecurities when this happens, SHAMEFUL
This is exactly why things here are so bad and not likely to get better until this mayor leaves the scene ,
Again thank you all you ignoramuses that voted for this man
Like them or not .... Art Scorria and Justin Woods No.1 & No.2 were in Charge of this program... and ALL City Business! They searched for this and wanted this grant ..then gave the power of administration and delievery to the O'neil Group! Why ? Did it get voted on ? Like it or Not.. our beloved Mayor and ALL Council actually has no clue how this program works? They are still in the learning process!! Some of council trusted our leader Art some did not !! Did our council get dupe? Some did and some knew more than others ? But Art sitting with Andy Silver were they trusted ? Council thinks....What could be wrong with this program? The characters of power and control ! C.W. AUGUSTINE this is only 2 people JAMES O'Neil and Jen Ashley ( X -let go / canned employees of St. Lawrence Co. Housing)now you need a willing realtor Stevenson ( sitting on the board of St. Lawrence Co. Housing) These 3 have all the answers of the program !! They ran the City of Ogdensburg Housing Debacle! Who were the followers the 3 needed to run this operation?? Art and Justin ? Yes .. Thus conflict arises? Art,Justin, Mayor & Council do battle! But the fact is the ones responsible for this is the ones in the Grant program. OUR leaders do zero investigation, do not have time, they don't do there homework! They are informed by a packet written by the manager before each meeting. They must trust or QUESTION the manager? With what goes on these days ....is a councilor is a full time job ? Will this saga continue ......?
No Question about it! The Biggs of Canton got screwed. GO to WWWconstructionmismanagement.com
But the problem is why is no one helping them or even interested? Goverment programs SUCK!!!!! Looking forward for the goverment to suck us all dry !!!
The news media gave the impression that the Burke Family paid $51,000 for 819 Knox St. The real story is that a grant from the housing authority paid for this property. The only requirement for the Burke family is that they have to stay in this house for 15 years and pay all utilities and property taxes.
Annoymous 10.19 is right on the money about O'Neil, Jen Ashley and our new council person Jen Stevenson. Thanks again all who voted for this self-serving person.
Not to bad mouth a Council member, however, Jennifer Stevenson is on the Board of Directors for the St Lawrence County Housing council. Both the City and the SLCHC run first time Home Buyer Programs. Now if she is a Real Estate Agent, does she not have a Conflict of Interest in making sure those programs are moving just a certain way? Someone has to be on the Buyer end and someone has to be on the Seller end.
Some of the grants are designed so that administrative funds can be drawn at certain key points throughout the grant management. i.e., 25% administrative for 25% completion of the grant. So in order to get full payment one would have to burn through the grants as rapidly as possible to make the best profit. I think this is where contracting an outside agency such as C.W.Augustine is a huge mistake. How can you be focused on quality of work when you are constantly staring at the bottom line?
These programs were designed for the benefit of the Homeowners and not the grant administrators.
So what does Ogdensburg have left for assistance to these homeowners? The City Manager made a big fight over property taxes with Association for Neighborhood Rehabilitation. How much did this battle cost the City? Sure there are legal fees but the Association brought in a multitude of grant monies that were mainly used within the City limits. How much is that going to hurt the city each year, over and over again? Was that worth pushing them out of business? That was another 10-20 jobs from rolls.
I believe the City had approached the St Lawrence County Housing Council long before they contacted Mr. O'Neil to administer their grants. Something must have smelled fishy back then for them to decline that offer.
Straighten up City Leaders! Clean up your own house and make the city a respectable place to live again.
This blog is making excellant points ? Asking the right questions that should be asked ? Our Mayor and Council should read it.. To all of you people who have made these 10 comments( Kudos) ... for sticking to the point and no BS. No nane calling and progress is being made. Keep going... the truth is refreshing to hear !!!
you want the truth - jenn stevenson was on the Housing Council Board that fired CW Augustine and Jen Ashley.
Want more truth - SLCHC didnt get funded this year, why because w/out Jim O'Neil it doesn't have the capacity to run the programs.
Want more truth - Ogdensburg had one of the best applications in the state this year, but it didn't get funded because Council made such a mess of this whole situation.
Since we are on a roll, here's a little more: Mark Jacobs f-up the program so bad that the state and federal government shut down the City's funding. Woods had to reconstruct the finances going back 10 years and Jen Ashley straightened out the reporting and closing out of 10 open grants going back to 1996.
People are entitled to their political opinions about whether or not the government should offer these programs, and certainly about whether or not to have the programs operated in house or by an outside contractor. Either way can work, but it all depends on having qualified people running the programs.
There are also financial considerations. The 2 full-time people that were running the program cost the City $150k/year - and the funds were not coming from the City. The reason the County, Potsdam and all the other communities outsource is because that way the cost of the programs are supported by the programs.
The City was misspending program income on salaries, code enforcement pick up trucks, etc. 80% of the funds weren't helping people, just paying salaries. Since the contract w/n CW Augustine, less than 15% of the grant funds have been paid for the administration of the program.
Ultimately Council needs to make a policy decision as to whether it wants to have a housing program or leave it all to the County. If the decision is to have a program, let the new City Manager/ and or Planning Director (i.e. the administration) put together a plan to operate the program in compliance w/ state and federal regs). Then ask for copies of the reports, but stick to policy issues.
6:45 tells truths that people may not want to hear, but they are fact.
Trying to smear Jen Stevenson by tying her to Augustine is BS, as is inferring that she is manipulating the system for personal gain. She sits on a Board of Directors with little or nothing to say about day to day operations.
Another truth is that staff at Augustine are the most experienced grant administrators in the County with more capacity than any outfit north of Watertown.
In spite of what the Canton couple would have you believe, Augustine also has the respect of the funding agencies because they administer programs "by-the-book" according to the regulations, and don't play the type of shell games that the city got caught at five years ago.
I have to disagree with the statement about Marc Jacobs. In all the years he had done the housing rehabilitation Marc did not dictate how the funds were spent. He provided the management of the projects. And it does seem suspicious that none of the programs ever had issues that were brought to light before Art and Justin walked through the doors. Maybe it was and I missed it or maybe things were done by the book before someone else thought the programs were a free money pile.
Pointing the finger at Marc is baseless. Sit down and discuss program administration with him. He knows the in's and out's. I think they tried to use him as the fall guy because he was close to retirement.
And its laughable to an extent because there was none of this behavior or issues when it was done in house.
I do agree that using the administrative funds to finance vehicles and other departments outside of the rehabilitation office, is clear cut mismanagement of funds.
Where is all the grant money now if C.W. Augustine did the city such a blessing? He saw the money on the table and didn't look for it down the road! There are multiple funding agencies out there. Were all grants applied for or just one?
If the City decides to get out of the housing programs and let the county dictate the grants, how much do you think will be brought into Ogdensburg each year. Not even close to the amount Mr. Jacobs brought in each year.
There doesn't need to be any finger pointing through this. What is done is done. The city leaders need to develop a secure system of checks and balances throughout this restructuring of grants.
With each grant comes an administrative plan. This is the guidelines for how you are to administer the grants. No one should have to look very far for answers.
I have heard some people suggest as to not paying the contractors until the project is finished. I also disagree with this. How many contractors in our area can float credit on 5 or 6 projects at the same time. Most of our contractors aren't that big to survive that type of credit requirement.
Paying at 50% and 100% seems fair. They should have enough credit to sustain them halfway through each project. I agree in no monies upfront and permits for ALL projects.
50 and 100 is correct, which is what the City began doing w CWA. Jacobs was fronting peole grant funds and paying them in advabce of the work done. Augustine finished 15 projects where the contractors had been paid more than the work.
It wasn't that this came to light by Woods and Sciorra as much as it was ignored and not dealt with properly by Marty Murphy or Jacobs.
Let me see if I have this correct. Jacobs was allowed to write checks to contractors and in those 20+ years we had the same public outcry with him running the show as we do with CWA running it. But the programs are done better now? I do not remember the community so up in arms over the programs before.
833 Your right in your assumption. the community was never up in arms before.. Our mayor used this as a springboard to win the election and its going to take a lot of time to calm it down.. Augustine group needs to go period.. Either do it inhouse or turn it over to the county. Its pretty obvious this is not run properly and a waste of money.. Someone blowing smoke up our butts making us thing its an ok thing ..
I feel better with Wayne Ashley on the council. At least he questions things as did Mike Powers. I think we could have used both of them at the same time to start making a difference. I think Mike is on the right track with all of his questions too. Everyone of them should put a hold on voting for anything until they are clearly informed on any questions they have.
The Mayor needs to hear people out when they want to speak at the City Council Meetings. He forgets that without the people's voices that he himself has no voice at all.
Mayor Nelson, the people elected you. Let them be heard in their own words.
It was a very interesting meeting the other night, sitting at the edge of the mud pond, somewhat one sided with the biggest toad in the puddle doing all he could to stifle others and get onto new business without even asking the crowd in the grassy seat before him if they had any questions. This council and administration sure has gotten themselves in some muddy waters near the river. I thinks it time for them to all go take a plunge! Brrrribet!
The spin has come in from Stevenson, O 'niel and Ashley. Why sit on a Housing Board with little or nothing to say? You are on the SLC Housing Board over the Administrator ,your the Realtor, (for buyer and seller) your the Appraiser.... NO CONFLICT of INTEREST ????? The Administator is also the Inspector ??? You now also sit on City Council - discuss, vote and sit in executive session. What to Hell ...this crosses no lines ???? Starting to smell a little ! What is the legality here . More lawsuits ?? Also they want to bring in Jacobs now.... give me a break.
YOU.. LEFT OUT THAT SHE SOLD THE CITY PLANNER HIS HOUSE AND LIVES NEXT DOOR! Her and justin were buddies!!1 ALSO BEFORE THE ELECTION, AT THE FRIEGHT HOUSE SHE WAS PART OF A JAMES O'NEIL CLOSED TALK GROUP WHERE SLC HOUSING WAS DISCUSSED !!! SHE WAS RUNNING FOR OFFICE AND HELPING O'NEIL...BUT THE PRESS WAS NOT INVITED !!!! MORE MULTI-TASKING ... OR BRAIN WASHING !
8:24 Sounds like you crawed out of under a bus and want the public un-informed ? or Its the Art ,Scamp ,Nick etc.group Mike Haters ...because Morley ask to many questions and the public might learn ....
Here is a simple.. short less than 5 minute Question someone should ask at the NEXT COUNCIL MEETING !!! Mayor,and 6 counclors have any of you, profited or made money from the St. Lawrence County Housing program ????????? Please answer this question! Then stand there for four minutes of silence. Honest ones will say hell no. But Someone will take the 5th!!!!
Did Justin's house receive a grant too? Someone should check into that. Seems highly possible now, doesn't it! If he did, how could he pass the income qualification? Hmmmm?? Was that through the SLCHC too?
His income was probably to high ? Do not know any facts on that? But it connects Scorria and Woods with their approval to the happy 3that made money on on these Grants. Secret pacts keep the rat's from talking about things to the press,mayor and Council!
no, they didn't receive any grants. his wife got a loan from the Unitarian Church(operated by the Housing Council) that is available to help moderate income families w/ closing costs. i know for a fact they disclosed both of their incomes and are making payments every month.
"The Unitarian Church(operated by the Housing Council)"? You mean the Unitarian Church operated by Dave Weisbard that use to work for the Housing Council and now works for Jim O'Neil at C.W. Augustine? Huh? WOW, What a vicious dirty circle!!
I find it amazing that they qualified within the guidelines as Justin's job alone started in the neighborhood of $89,000. You must have some very deep inside information. Do you work for the Housing Council? I didn't know the Housing Council operated that Church. That is way too cool. So the church gives out grants and then they take payments each month? Is there any interest and do they have any money left?
It wasn't a grant, they got a loan (which is being paid back) to help w/ closing costs. It was a program for people w/ moderate incomes (not low income.
Look at the budget on City's website, Justin was making less than 65,000/yr when they bought that house and as I said, I know for a fact that they disclosed all of their income and qualified.
The unitarion churchs definition of the word Moderate is pretty broad, but so are the dealings of Augustine Group... Any more free money out there.. Now that we have heard from Justin Mike morley and Jennifer Stevenson along with James Oneil lets move on and cancel oiur relations with this group.
Morley has nothing to do with this !! i'm just one of the dumb persons victimize by the cast of characters above. He asks questions some good some bad , his only problem he dosen't hide the way they do. I would like to thank people that have put 2 and 2together. I Wish someone would ask a few more questions at council meetings like bloger 10:40Hard ball is the only way to go.
4:41 you seem to be certain that you know everything about the Woods and Stevenson transaction maybe you wouldn't mind providing all that information to the newspaper. I'm sure that there must be realtor records. By the way you might want to look to see who's realtor sign is outside of Justin's house today, no surprise it is Blue Heron, I bet she won't make any money from that deal either. She needs him to leave so he won't tell all of the secrets and vice versa.
3:14 Well your very knowledgeable on what Justin and his wife did and didn't do. Almost like you were right in the midst of the entire transaction. Does your company not have a confidentiality policy whereas the applicant's income and financial information is not to be disclosed? Whose team do you play on, Ogdensburg, Blue Heron, the church or the Housing Council? You also stated that his wife got the financial backing. Did they state that they didn't reside together at the time of the purchase? I'm willing to bet they did in order to get assistance.If I'm wrong than I apologize. No matter how broad some of the programs appear, they each seem to have some guidelines with regards to income.
Also, did the church administer their own grant? If not, who is responsible for that, the Housing Council? Who was in charge cause I'd like this avenue investigated as well. Who can investigators talk to over there about this? Does the administering of tax dollars have any transparency? I think the public has a right to know where their dollars are going. Maybe not the people's names and personal information but the property addresses and dollar amount of the project would be nice.
Check with the Mayor. He understands it all very well. After all, his daughter got a grant with the help of Justin Woods. He tried to get a grant for the Wades also, but they didn't qualify.
So, when Woods started to screw up, he ordered Sciorra to get rid of him, but Woods reminds him how he helped his daughter. Ooops!!
Then the Wades reminds him how his daughter got a grant, but they didn't. Ooops!!!
So, Nelson throws Sciorra under the bus to cover himself, and get re-electd by 11 votes.
Hey!!! Let's blame it all on the outsider Sciorra. It works every time with the help of The Journal.
Is there one person in the leadership of this city who is worth anything? Will the city ever be worth anything until The Journal dies?
we worked w/ becky and annette andWe disclosed all of my financial info (jenn and cw augustine had nothing to do w/ us getting a 5 k loan to help w our closing costs).
The house, mortgage and loan are in my wifes name b/c I foolishly ruined my credit in my 20s. We discolsed that I lived there, my financesan and everything here was legal and correct.
And yes, we hired Jenn to sell our house, and no she didn't represent either party when we bought it.
You know, Mike Morley has often told people to get off of HIS blog because we are ruining it by asking questions like:" HOW MUCH DID THIS DEBACLE COST US TAXPAYERS?
The funny thing is, he always disappears when we ask that question.
7:44 pm Didn't O'neil and Ashley work for the Saint Lawrence Housing Council at that time? Wasn't Ashley the manager? Small world and then CW Augustine, Ashley and O'neil became the grant administrators in Ogdensburg? Was there a prior arrangement? It is too cozy to believe that CW Augustine, O'neil, Ashley just one day popped into your life again and you didn't remember that they worked together at the place you make payments for your house.
744 The question I would ask pertains to the mayors daughter and her boyfriend at the time.. I understand they got a house in a public auction for a good price. then I understand you set them up with a lot of grant money.. Is that fact or BS ..
After cutting through the BS.I would say there is a conflict of intersst with ? The 3 people on speed dial together.
James O'Neil - Ex Boss of St. Lawrence County Housing, then worked for CW Augistine as Grant Administer for Ogd., was also Home Inspector, Ran the Contractors and Controled the Funds. in a never ending project.
Jen Ashley - Ex worker - let go from SLCH and then is working with O'Neil the old boss again.
Jen Stevenson - Sit on the Board of St.Lawrence Co. Housing , worked as realtor on the project, appraised the Homes,personal friends of the city planner, and sits on the Ogdensburg Council,and at closed informative meetings represents James O'Neil.
This is a mouth full... must have missed something ????
After watching the last 2 council meetings on channel 30 ?
Mr. Nelson's treatment was a little unfair to the Biggs and Lafave. Bill if you are a confirmed bank robber in the year 2000 while working.. are you thought of as a bank robber in 2011.Biggs story is relavent to us! Mr. Lafave's house was left structually unsound! Mr. LaFave wants a aafe structally sound house, NOT home beautiful. Mr. LaFave knew to much about construction to have been conned. (others are prime for plucking)It's O Neils responsibly.
A lot of power was handed to three people and friends . Absoultly it was abuse of power!You can not be Boss- Banker -Apraiser-Realtor- Home Selector Builder -Inspector - Public Servant. This group should no longer exist! Insider trading is a better example...
A "few thousand dollars" if we "read the paper"??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? THAT IS A LIE!!!
Read the same paper you have in your back pocket? In the fall, you would lie. Then, after that they'd put it in quotes, and later print it as fact. Remember all those interviews Mike, when other councilors like Skamperle and Vaugh were refused interviews?
How much Mike? How much for the attorneys? How much for the settlement? How much for Cosmo? How much to search for a new CM?
Listen up VOTERS and TAXPAYERS of Ogdensburg. Don't ask representatives like Mr. Morley any questions. He does not see it as your right. He'll let you know what to believes in the newspaper so they can spin a story about it.
Will we ever see the day when Morley, Nelson, and The Journal are gone or will Ogdensburg always be the armpit of the North country?
Mike hasnt worked in years due to an injury. Some people look down at him because of it but remember dont wish for what you dont want. Until this last election I have thought Mike represented the people one on one very well. He listened to complaints and looked into them and checked the matter out.. It ruffled feathers at city hall at times and Nelson would get upset with him for stirring the status quo pot.. Now hes gone adrift.. He follows Nelsons every lead like little Nick did.. Dont do that Mike.... Storm, Jen and Bill will do that we dont need you doing it... I dont believe its BS about the mayors daughter getting a grant.. If she qualified thats fine, if she didnt that needs to be investigated.. Justine Woods finding it for her and helping her get it is suspect especially when theres a whole lot of people out their who qualify.. I know the mayors son was hired and that was pure wrong but of course Sciorra who did it so it cleared nepotisim laws.. I know Nelson is living in Lisbon but maintains a city address so he can hold on to his job and thats wrong.. His lobby position on state pensions is totally against the wishes of the majority of the populas of the city and surrounding area.. Mike.. Get back to doing a good job again and start questioning some of the BS thats going on and for sure get out of the CW Augustine delima Oh hell there I go agian giving the spelling freAK A REASON TO WRITE..
O-BOY its the Morley & Nelson hater !! Do you think we missed you? If the paper tells lies so don't you on this blog ! This blog is also run by the newspaper!I know you need to vent because of Doctors orders. Most of us on the blog would like to stick to the point! Thank You for your comments Plug Nickel .....
If you go or watch the meetings you would find out Morley is top questioner and is not in Nelson's cornor. Nelson is sweeping and Mikes questioning . Wayne is pokeing around But the rest have to get more interested.
You are welcome. A few months ago when Mike was controlling this blog,another blogger asked Mike to confirm the amount spent. He has never gotten around to it, except tp say "a few thousand". Well MIKE THE CONFIRMER, PLEASE CONFIRM EXACTLY HOW MUCH.
As far as Mike being a great guy goes, he is one of the most sneaky mean spirited politicians we have EVER had in the BURG.
I'll give him this though, Nelson went into hiding months ago, and Mike is still out here taking body shots, and calling people names.
Right on 1025....if the State Attorney and the others you mention would look further than a few files to see if the person who got the grant qualified and into where the heck $ 200K on the rehab money for buildings now worth 90K total really went I think eyes would be opened, especially Mayor Nelson....save yourself Bill call for the investigation yourself .....you can then sit back and smile for the cameras again..
The New Blog Says Grant Money Is Available, Oh Boy, here we go! Let's close this grant out with a bang as well because the chance of this area getting grants again soon is slim. Here is a suggestion though, Blue Heron is located on Ford Street, maybe Stevenson, our new City Councilor can work her magic with her best buddies at CW Augustine to get a face lift for her business and then have the City or County pay for her portion from the growth fund or "slush fund." She could then turn around and sell it to a first time home buyer she just "found" from her other friends at St. Lawrence Housing, making sure they get grant money of course so Blue Heron can get paid again and finally she could promise the home buyer that she can get the house/business rehabilitated from one or both of her buddies CW Augustine or St. Lawrence Housing with yet more grant money. Any way you look at it when you are Stevenson and you sit on a board, Board of Realtors, City Council, Rotary, St. Lawrence Housing, you are entitled to free stuff, I mean income. This is how grant money really works when you have dirty players in the system. So how do you pay your kickbacks out Stevenson, are you and Augustine and St. Lawrence staff working on a cash basis or gift basis?
Golfing trips to Canada - a little 18 Holes plus cart and dinner. Trips,Hotel and Meals are nice! Snacks and Informative Meetings to discuss strategy help! Gifts are also Great......after all it is a COZY GROUP !!!!
With all that has taken place with the NSP Grant Funding and housing rehabs in the city, most of this could have been avoided by having an independant housing commitee made up of people who have only the best interest of the city and no possiblity of financial gain. It sure wouldn't hurt to have a licensed engineer onboard as well, even if on a per diem basis. It wouldn't hurt either to have the State send someone to inspect the project books and work performed and have them be accountable and sign off on these projects, don't just leave it to the one man show James O'Neill
O'Neill gets "75 per hour of your tax dollars so does the reverend Wiesbad but Ron Williams is less wholly so he only gets only $60 per hour and Jen Jen gets $40 per hour, this is per grant agreement for real....what or who is in your pocket
right on brutha, we be preachin now..why don't we give O'neill a code name since he likes to hide inside the wouldwurk..how about we call him "hot pockets"...that spell cheker is not going to like this one...maybe he or she can get a cool $75 per hour like hot pockets does!
Some answers: 1) The grant agencies have already investigated these matters and found no wrong doing.
2) There is no 'special committee' for these grants - they came from the Division of Homes and Community Renewal before the Regional Economic Development Council was formed. DHCR has reviewed Ogdensburg's programs and given them a clean bill of help. The economic development council isn't anywhere, it is made up of individuals and chaired by Tony Collins of Clarkson University.
3) The charities Bureau doesn't apply here - Ogdensburg is a municipality and C. W. Augustine is a private, for-profit company.
4) Most of these projects were not handled by a realtor - property owners applied for the loans and had work done on houses they were living in. The NSP program applies to city-owned houses which were sold through the Planning Department independent of any realtor.
5) The state atty general won't get involved unless there is illegal activity occurring - which, so far, no one has found. I'm not sure why the IRS would be involved in a situation that has nothing to do with income taxation.
1. From what I understand, The Grant agencies have only done spot checks on certain projects. Now that some of the highlighted problem projects are coming to light, maybe they need to take another look.
2. The Governor's special committee was designed to ensure that these grants were going to be handled by capable agencies. However, this doesn't mean they can't go take a look at past/present grants. I'll find out for sure when I call them Monday.
3. The Charities Bureau does apply to SLCHC and the Unitarian Church, which is what was stated, they are getting a phone call as well. Both of these groups are not for profits that fall under their jurisdiction.
4. The mere fact that SLCHC, Ogdensburg and the County operate Homebuyer programs and the same real estate agent is involved, in some fashion, with all three programs (or both since SLCHC operates grants for the County) definitely warrants an investigation by the Ethics Committee.
5. The State Attorney General will get involved because of the Collusion and Conflict of Interest violations throughout all of this. Additionally, it appears that these projects get pushed no matter who applies and at what income level. They need to take a look and see if there are falsified income reporting for these applications. Since the IRS can run income by Social Security Numbers, it would be smart to get them to come to the table as well. And by the way, since you think you are smarter than the average person, The Charities Bureau is under control by the NYS Attorney General's Office.
I see what is going on here. You try to answer the taxpayer's concerns right here in this forum. I don't know who you think you are but your not gonna stop the taxpayers from picking up the phone and making some phone calls.
This isn't about what's done is done. That's fictitious. We want accountability and a guarantee that the same players aren't going to keep snowballing the public. They've lined their pockets and we have sat back and watched long enough.
Make some phone calls people. The more calls they get, the faster they will step up and start looking.
Charities Bureau (212) 416-8401 Attorney General Helpline: 1-800-771-7755 NYS Association of Realtors: 518.463.0300
Thanks You "Jen Stevenson and Justin:( Reprensitives of James O'Neil) for the reply..... so you are going to sit there on the council and support James O'Neil. NO Conflict??? Shame on you and the citizens of Ogdensburg that support this. No Crime????? Just slight of Hand tactics?
Jen...Don't feel bad because if Hosmer does not excuse himself of Marina District Business ... he will be catching up to your standards.
At least Mr. Morley and Mr. Ashley are asking Questions - but more help from the inside and the public is needed.
Ethics in Ogdensburg does NOT EXIST.......... I think if voters and taxpayers or as Skamperele Calls us the MOB.....gets outraged enought "need to SPEAK OUT!"......IT will get (Election Mode) Nelson off his ASS!
As a VOTER AND TAXPAYER, Thank you and My Respect to 8:34 and 8:39 !! Clean up this Debacle in Ogdensburg! Blog 8:34 that is the way to look at issues.. Thank You Again!!! Jen Stevenson has used all her effort in DAMAGE CONTROL. BUT it only digs the hole deeper, Deeper and DEEPER!!! This is now the OFFICAL O"NEIL AND FRIENDS BLOG! Speak Out!
I am trying to understand this entire issue by listening to both sides. The issues and answers to them seem to point to the fact that we probably want to get out of the housing business or handle it in house.. Some of my own questions that I cant seem to get any reasonable answers to are 1. Why hasnt the mayor asked any questions? Does he understand all these issues? Since this hit the fan before the election until now he remains silent on all issues. He mouth run before the election but not since or at least for us.. Likes to talk alot when lobbying in Albany. 2. Why the meeting at the Freight House held for canidates by Jen S. Why wasnt the media invited? Why just canidates for office at that time? Seems like it would have helped if we could have attended.. 3. Why wasnt council more involved with this service from Oneil.. Under Nelsons management and leadership I think larceny has been condoned.. Larceny of taxpayer money...
9;27 good Questions - In front of me is letter head from CW Augustine Oct 14 2011 ... Dear Candidate As you know a greal deal of controversy lately about a small portion of the city of Ogd's grant supported housing programs!... as you know there is lot of heat & smoke with little light.. I expect you as all the candadates, have been called on to comment on the subject. Blah Blah .. You do not have the factual background....we are in a position to prodvide that background ... I am inviting you and all the candidates for city council to a Brief, Informal,OFF THE RECORD, Non-partisan briefing on the history,present and potential future of the Ogd. Housing Program....I have no interest in taking sides...will give a larger context and facts..... Join us for coffee,desert and Facts at the Freight House Oct.27at 2pm.
This is cut a little!!!
Press was not invited - but aked to and was told it was a private function !!! We were also not invited - only lawmakers?
The o'Neil group spoke ... with Stevenson addding in some of the blanks. Stevenson sent e-mails and organized!! 1st the candidates only got the letter after 4 days ( heat was applied)chosen menbers of council got e-mails. Get back with other answers - good hunting.
I’d like to introduce myself to all of you, my name is Pat Biggs. My mailing address is 206 CR 29, Canton New York, 13617. Some of you may have seen me and my husband, Fred, at two recent City Council meetings, or you may have read some of the things we have written that have been placed on www.constructionmismanagement.org
11:05 has said he or she had a paper in front of them, and read out some of it in the blog post. Would you send me a copy of it?
All of you, please, can you get me facts? Is there anyone who attended that meeting in the Freight House and will talk about what went on there?
I’m interested in whatever you have to say, and you don’t have to sign it. Of course, I’d love it if I had notarized affidavits from everybody, but I know that a person can be far too scared to do that. I know it well.
Anything truthful you send me, whether signed or not, will teach me something so that I can get to the final facts that will (hopefully) turn out to be prove-able in a Court of Law.
If you want to write about YOUR grant project, I’d be happy to know about it. If you want to write about “informational meetings” that took place, I’d be grateful for the info.
I haven’t put a phone number in because I’m not near the phone often. Please write and/or keep on blogging.
Thank you for your help.
Nothing will be placed on any website unless you tell me you want it there.
My best advice to you Mrs Biggs is for you to contact A. Addie Russell and make her reply public. B. Contact Patti Ritchie and make her reply public.. C. Congressman Owens should also be contacted and make his reply public.. Locally I sugess you contact Scott Sutherland a local legislator and also any legislators you are familiar with. Dont argue with them over points of whos authority it is as it is up to all of them to at least lend your some assistance. Then come back to the City Council in a couple of months and ask again to make a presentation. Other non taxpayers in the past have been allowed time to speak in front of the council and I suspect you should be without having any biased , embarresed mayor cutting you off. Again use any public formum you can to bring attention to your delimea.. Keep writing and useing the newpaper as you have in the past. You message is not falling on deaf ears just lazy politicans right now.. This is an election year so keep the heat up....
Lets get this blog back on point with information and talk on the housing debacle !
Scorria & Woods..... reccommended the CW Augustine Group.. both worked with them and supported them.
James O'neil & Jen Ashley ... ex employees of St. Lawrence Co. Housing (why were they let Go?) ...Handled the Contractors... Handled then Houseing inspections ... handled the Money.
Jen Stevenson ... Sitting on ST Lawrence Co. Housing Board.. a Realtor in the project ... an Appraiser in the project.. Advisor to C.w. Augistine group... Also a sitting City of Ogdensburg Counclor.
Firing or let go or however you want to put it.. Our acting city manager must question these people as to the fact surrounding their departure from the county. Then do a background check with the existing council and their members.. Any employer has the right to check on anyone who seeks employment with them.. Thats what happened with Sciorra and Woods.. No real investigative check done.. If they dont want to devulge any information to Cosmo voluntarily then thats their right but dont hire them that the citys right.. What happend to Nelsons fight and fire mode that he had before the election. He was going to get to the bottom of things and the manager had to go because of this etc etc... Oh.... I forgot he got elected.. Now he gets to sit on his dead ass for four more years and let this stuff fester.... You were elected mayor to lead not to sweep issues under the rug and move on as you say.. We need to know whats up with this housing thing.. We need to know who got all the benefits from it.. We need to know who on the council or their families benefited from the mis management... What contractors benefited and which fleesed the city and taxpayers, which were arrested for doing that.. We need to know???????
I just read and commented on an accusation of a sex offender being the favorite contractor of CW Augustines Oneil.. I know for a fact that Handyman for Hire was the most popular choice of Oneil when at the SLCHA and the man charged outrageous rates and only did fair to average work. His response to calls on complaints was zero.. Once he left a job that was it... Mrs. Biggs.. Did you have this company work on your house and were you satisfied with his work.. Someone gave a persons name as the offender consistant with the owner of this company.. If I find out this is true, there will be a complaint logged immediately for not notifying the people the work was being done for.. This is more BS from Augustine and Oneil....
O'Neill himself, as Construction Management Services, built our house. Handy Man for Hire sub-contracted for O'Neill for certain parts of the job (furnace etc.) while O'Neill was on a cruise to the Caribbean, with his former wife, his daughter and her boyfriend, and his son and his girlfriend. It would be difficult to separate out which parts were done by handy man, but the architect's and engineer's reports show that just about everything was shoddy/unsafe... If you haven't seen the reports, and are interested, they're on the website: www.constructionmismanagement.org Thanks.
here is some new news people how about the fact that the housing council bought four houses off of the county tax roll with county money, and more then one of the people sitting on the board has been paid for services with grant money, and paid people under the table to work on a building that is full of mold, these are our tax dollars hard at work and as along as we allow the people who are running the show now to continue things will not change, this is all public knowledge and so much more take a look you have the right also as far a the city of Oldenburg goes i would be asking who is selling the homes and who is handling the sale Jen im sure !!!
the sales are public record they we purchased in the fall of 2010, the board members are also public knowledge, and yes Stevenson was sitting on the board just call the housing council and ask for a list of board members, a board member hired his son and some friends to do clean up, the money came from grants( tax payer money) no Ashley was not involved she has already been fired oniel im not sure about, oh and by the way as long as we are asking lets find out why she was allowed to purchase insurance for her son with grant money
On their website WWW.SLCHC.ORG you can see: 1. A news article confirming the home purchases mentioned above. 2. That Jen Stevenson is a current board member. 3. That David Weissbard is also a current board member.
Also of note: David Weissbard was recently quoted in the Journal, and the article stated that he was a grant application writer for none other than C.W. Augustine Inc. HMMMM...
From what I've learned and what I've heard of this entire ordeal, Justin Woods was being paid a city salary and sitting back a letting James O'Neill/CWAugustine do his entire job, with the blessing of the city manager. Go to Ogdensburg.org and check out his job duties as the Dir. Planning & Developement per the City Municipal Code, while you're at it check out the duties of the Comptroller, he's got even more responsibilty in this whole mess because he holds the purse strings and has the duty of knowing where the money went, besides in O'Neill's pocket!! This entire mess needs to be audited, investigated, and prosecuted!! It's become very apparent that this city governemnt i.e. the Mayor, Comptroller, and various City councelors are anything but "TRANSPARENT", they either gag the public from speaking out the truth or choose to sit there mute when asked questions that require answers of this most perplexing of issues. I happend to notice that the question came up about the lack of published councel minutes, as of the Feb. 13th public hearing, yeah, where are they? Someone must not want the public to keep up with what's been going on and keep this whole thing in the dark as long as possible. It's time the light was shown onto this circus under the "Bib Top"!.. Pinky & The Brain
82 comments:
It stands to reason thats what Nelson wants and will get. Put the dam issue behind him.
We need to get out of this business and stick to city business and let the housing councils fleece the taxpayers without city help.
The last council was ignorant of how this system run and never did learn. Jennifer Stevensons presence on the council now shouldnt influence the fact the city needs to break from Augustine and sell their properties to bidders.
Nelson needs to step down from the growth fund board seeing his presence is illegal and the council should be more aware of where that money is spent also..
We need a new city manager soon but chances of getting anyone experienced enough or with the courage to fill the job with all the cutthroats in this government hiring him/her..
Someone said we need a new planner but this young lady thats doing the job right now seems to be holding her own.
Sometime in the near future we have to hear the final figure on firing Art.. Its got to be in the four or five hundred thousand range with everything figured in..
I read now that Nelson is supporting the governors pension rreform act.. With all the public servants he is supposed to represent up here in Ogdensburg it would seem like a poor choice for him to make... Oh of course they claim it wont affect anyone now owrking.. Think about that statement for a minute..
THE WAY IT WORKS or Goes down,,,,,,,,Have a home in bad shape in Ogdensburg and want to sell it !!
Get aprroached by a realtor that has connections to St. Lawrence County Housing. In turn the realtor finds a buyer. Then introduces seller and buyer to SLCH program! All inspections and repairs done by St Lawrence Co. Housing agent AKA-Administrator and Deliever of such Grant.( This small group of 3 are-Realtor,Appraiser,Administer, Progran Delievery Agent, Inspector,and Contractor.) Seller pays only Realtor Fee, Inspections and any other fees that can be tucked in. Buyer gets home , remolding work and any extras paid by grant!! This sound COZY !!!So many jobs and titles.. but its only 3 people !!! Just fill in the names and get aquainted with the program!! $$$$$$ MAY WORK FOR YOU $$$$$$
Times are tough, budgets are slim. One person at a non-profit organization may have to fill several roles.
Nelson was very desperate last night at the meeting. He wanted to squash Mr. Mrs Biggs presentation about Mr Oneil...
Why?? I would think it would be interesting to hear from people.. Oh, I forgot.. Nr Nelson believes in silent meetings giving you five minutes and looking stupid at yu all...
This IS NOT an OPEN government at ALL -- it has become a DISGRACE . Mr Nelson is way over the line in terms of stifling citizens and demonstrates his inability and limitations and insecurities when this happens, SHAMEFUL
This is exactly why things here are so bad and not likely to get better until this mayor leaves the scene ,
Again thank you all you ignoramuses that voted for this man
Questions and Answers ?
OR
Think about it ?
Like them or not .... Art Scorria and Justin Woods No.1 & No.2 were in Charge of this program... and ALL City Business!
They searched for this and wanted this grant ..then gave the power of administration and delievery to the O'neil Group! Why ? Did it get voted on ?
Like it or Not.. our beloved Mayor and ALL Council actually has no clue how this program works? They are still in the learning process!! Some of council trusted our leader Art some did not !! Did our council get dupe? Some did and some knew more than others ? But Art sitting with Andy Silver were they trusted ? Council thinks....What could be wrong with this program?
The characters of power and control ! C.W. AUGUSTINE this is only 2 people JAMES O'Neil and Jen Ashley ( X -let go / canned employees of St. Lawrence Co. Housing)now you need a willing realtor Stevenson ( sitting on the board of St. Lawrence Co. Housing) These 3 have all the answers of the program !! They ran the City of Ogdensburg Housing Debacle! Who were the followers the 3 needed to run this operation?? Art and Justin ? Yes .. Thus conflict arises?
Art,Justin, Mayor & Council do battle! But the fact is the ones responsible for this is the ones in the Grant program. OUR
leaders do zero investigation, do not have time, they don't do there homework! They are informed by a packet written by the manager before each meeting. They must trust or QUESTION the manager? With what goes on these days ....is a councilor is a full time job ? Will this saga continue ......?
No Question about it! The Biggs of Canton got screwed. GO to
WWWconstructionmismanagement.com
But the problem is why is no one helping them or even interested?
Goverment programs SUCK!!!!! Looking forward for the goverment to suck us all dry !!!
Looking forward to hear the James o'Neil, Jen Ashley and Jen Stevenson spin on this. Three peas in a POD.
The news media gave the impression that the Burke Family paid $51,000 for 819 Knox St. The real story is that a grant from the housing authority paid for this property. The only requirement for the Burke family is that they have to stay in this house for 15 years and pay all utilities and property taxes.
Annoymous 10.19 is right on the money about O'Neil, Jen Ashley and our new council person Jen Stevenson. Thanks again all who voted for this self-serving person.
Not to bad mouth a Council member, however, Jennifer Stevenson is on the Board of Directors for the St Lawrence County Housing council. Both the City and the SLCHC run first time Home Buyer Programs. Now if she is a Real Estate Agent, does she not have a Conflict of Interest in making sure those programs are moving just a certain way? Someone has to be on the Buyer end and someone has to be on the Seller end.
Some of the grants are designed so that administrative funds can be drawn at certain key points throughout the grant management. i.e., 25% administrative for 25% completion of the grant. So in order to get full payment one would have to burn through the grants as rapidly as possible to make the best profit. I think this is where contracting an outside agency such as C.W.Augustine is a huge mistake. How can you be focused on quality of work when you are constantly staring at the bottom line?
These programs were designed for the benefit of the Homeowners and not the grant administrators.
So what does Ogdensburg have left for assistance to these homeowners? The City Manager made a big fight over property taxes with Association for Neighborhood Rehabilitation. How much did this battle cost the City? Sure there are legal fees but the Association brought in a multitude of grant monies that were mainly used within the City limits. How much is that going to hurt the city each year, over and over again? Was that worth pushing them out of business? That was another 10-20 jobs from rolls.
I believe the City had approached the St Lawrence County Housing Council long before they contacted Mr. O'Neil to administer their grants. Something must have smelled fishy back then for them to decline that offer.
Straighten up City Leaders! Clean up your own house and make the city a respectable place to live again.
This blog is making excellant points ? Asking the right questions that should be asked ? Our Mayor and Council should read it.. To all of you people who have made these 10 comments( Kudos) ... for sticking to the point and no BS. No nane calling and progress is being made. Keep going... the truth is refreshing to hear !!!
you want the truth - jenn stevenson was on the Housing Council Board that fired CW Augustine and Jen Ashley.
Want more truth - SLCHC didnt get funded this year, why because w/out Jim O'Neil it doesn't have the capacity to run the programs.
Want more truth - Ogdensburg had one of the best applications in the state this year, but it didn't get funded because Council made such a mess of this whole situation.
Since we are on a roll, here's a little more: Mark Jacobs f-up the program so bad that the state and federal government shut down the City's funding. Woods had to reconstruct the finances going back 10 years and Jen Ashley straightened out the reporting and closing out of 10 open grants going back to 1996.
People are entitled to their political opinions about whether or not the government should offer these programs, and certainly about whether or not to have the programs operated in house or by an outside contractor. Either way can work, but it all depends on having qualified people running the programs.
There are also financial considerations. The 2 full-time people that were running the program cost the City $150k/year - and the funds were not coming from the City. The reason the County, Potsdam and all the other communities outsource is because that way the cost of the programs are supported by the programs.
The City was misspending program income on salaries, code enforcement pick up trucks, etc. 80% of the funds weren't helping people, just paying salaries. Since the contract w/n CW Augustine, less than 15% of the grant funds have been paid for the administration of the program.
Ultimately Council needs to make a policy decision as to whether it wants to have a housing program or leave it all to the County. If the decision is to have a program, let the new City Manager/ and or Planning Director (i.e. the administration) put together a plan to operate the program in compliance w/ state and federal regs). Then ask for copies of the reports, but stick to policy issues.
6:45 tells truths that people may not want to hear, but they are fact.
Trying to smear Jen Stevenson by tying her to Augustine is BS, as is inferring that she is manipulating the system for personal gain. She sits on a Board of Directors with little or nothing to say about day to day operations.
Another truth is that staff at Augustine are the most experienced grant administrators in the County with more capacity than any outfit north of Watertown.
In spite of what the Canton couple would have you believe, Augustine also has the respect of the funding agencies because they administer programs "by-the-book" according to the regulations, and don't play the type of shell games that the city got caught at five years ago.
My $.02
I have to disagree with the statement about Marc Jacobs. In all the years he had done the housing rehabilitation Marc did not dictate how the funds were spent. He provided the management of the projects. And it does seem suspicious that none of the programs ever had issues that were brought to light before Art and Justin walked through the doors. Maybe it was and I missed it or maybe things were done by the book before someone else thought the programs were a free money pile.
Pointing the finger at Marc is baseless. Sit down and discuss program administration with him. He knows the in's and out's. I think they tried to use him as the fall guy because he was close to retirement.
And its laughable to an extent because there was none of this behavior or issues when it was done in house.
I do agree that using the administrative funds to finance vehicles and other departments outside of the rehabilitation office, is clear cut mismanagement of funds.
Where is all the grant money now if C.W. Augustine did the city such a blessing? He saw the money on the table and didn't look for it down the road! There are multiple funding agencies out there. Were all grants applied for or just one?
If the City decides to get out of the housing programs and let the county dictate the grants, how much do you think will be brought into Ogdensburg each year. Not even close to the amount Mr. Jacobs brought in each year.
There doesn't need to be any finger pointing through this. What is done is done. The city leaders need to develop a secure system of checks and balances throughout this restructuring of grants.
With each grant comes an administrative plan. This is the guidelines for how you are to administer the grants. No one should have to look very far for answers.
I have heard some people suggest as to not paying the contractors until the project is finished. I also disagree with this. How many contractors in our area can float credit on 5 or 6 projects at the same time. Most of our contractors aren't that big to survive that type of credit requirement.
Paying at 50% and 100% seems fair. They should have enough credit to sustain them halfway through each project. I agree in no monies upfront and permits for ALL projects.
50 and 100 is correct, which is what the City began doing w CWA. Jacobs was fronting peole grant funds and paying them in advabce of the work done. Augustine finished 15 projects where the contractors had been paid more than the work.
It wasn't that this came to light by Woods and Sciorra as much as it was ignored and not dealt with properly by Marty Murphy or Jacobs.
Let me see if I have this correct. Jacobs was allowed to write checks to contractors and in those 20+ years we had the same public outcry with him running the show as we do with CWA running it. But the programs are done better now? I do not remember the community so up in arms over the programs before.
833 Your right in your assumption. the community was never up in arms before.. Our mayor used this as a springboard to win the election and its going to take a lot of time to calm it down.. Augustine group needs to go period.. Either do it inhouse or turn it over to the county. Its pretty obvious this is not run properly and a waste of money..
Someone blowing smoke up our butts making us thing its an ok thing ..
I feel better with Wayne Ashley on the council. At least he questions things as did Mike Powers. I think we could have used both of them at the same time to start making a difference. I think Mike is on the right track with all of his questions too. Everyone of them should put a hold on voting for anything until they are clearly informed on any questions they have.
The Mayor needs to hear people out when they want to speak at the City Council Meetings. He forgets that without the people's voices that he himself has no voice at all.
Mayor Nelson, the people elected you. Let them be heard in their own words.
It was a very interesting meeting the other night, sitting at the edge of the mud pond, somewhat one sided with the biggest toad in the puddle doing all he could to stifle others and get onto new business without even asking the crowd in the grassy seat before him if they had any questions. This council and administration sure has gotten themselves in some muddy waters near the river. I thinks it time for them to all go take a plunge! Brrrribet!
The spin has come in from Stevenson, O 'niel and Ashley. Why sit on a Housing Board with little or nothing to say? You are on the SLC Housing Board over the Administrator ,your the Realtor, (for buyer and seller) your the Appraiser.... NO CONFLICT of INTEREST ????? The Administator is also the Inspector ??? You now also sit on City Council - discuss, vote and sit in executive session. What to Hell ...this crosses no lines ???? Starting to smell a little ! What is the legality here . More lawsuits ?? Also they want to bring in Jacobs now.... give me a break.
Mike: will you please stop this? first you throw Powers under the bus, and now Stevenson.
Watch what you read on this blog. Remember Morley is all over it pointing fingers at everyone, but himself.
YOU.. LEFT OUT THAT SHE SOLD THE CITY PLANNER HIS HOUSE AND LIVES NEXT DOOR! Her and justin were buddies!!1 ALSO BEFORE THE ELECTION, AT THE FRIEGHT HOUSE SHE WAS PART OF A JAMES O'NEIL CLOSED TALK GROUP WHERE SLC HOUSING WAS DISCUSSED !!! SHE WAS RUNNING FOR OFFICE AND HELPING O'NEIL...BUT THE PRESS WAS NOT INVITED !!!! MORE MULTI-TASKING ... OR BRAIN WASHING !
8:24 Sounds like you crawed out of under a bus and want the public un-informed ? or Its the Art ,Scamp ,Nick etc.group Mike Haters ...because Morley ask to many questions and the public might learn ....
Here is a simple.. short less than 5 minute Question someone should ask at the NEXT COUNCIL MEETING !!! Mayor,and 6 counclors have any of you, profited or made money from the St. Lawrence County Housing program ????????? Please answer this question! Then stand there for four minutes of silence. Honest ones will say hell no. But Someone will take the 5th!!!!
Did Justin's house receive a grant too? Someone should check into that. Seems highly possible now, doesn't it! If he did, how could he pass the income qualification? Hmmmm?? Was that through the SLCHC too?
His income was probably to high ?
Do not know any facts on that? But it connects Scorria and Woods with their approval to the happy 3that made money on on these Grants. Secret pacts keep the rat's from talking about things to the press,mayor and Council!
no, they didn't receive any grants. his wife got a loan from the Unitarian Church(operated by the Housing Council) that is available to help moderate income families w/ closing costs. i know for a fact they disclosed both of their incomes and are making payments every month.
"The Unitarian Church(operated by the Housing Council)"? You mean the Unitarian Church operated by Dave Weisbard that use to work for the Housing Council and now works for Jim O'Neil at C.W. Augustine? Huh? WOW, What a vicious dirty circle!!
I find it amazing that they qualified within the guidelines as Justin's job alone started in the neighborhood of $89,000. You must have some very deep inside information. Do you work for the Housing Council? I didn't know the Housing Council operated that Church. That is way too cool. So the church gives out grants and then they take payments each month? Is there any interest and do they have any money left?
It wasn't a grant, they got a loan (which is being paid back) to help w/ closing costs. It was a program for people w/ moderate incomes (not low income.
Look at the budget on City's website, Justin was making less than 65,000/yr when they bought that house and as I said, I know for a fact that they disclosed all of their income and qualified.
It should be noted also that the housing council and city had no business relationship and there were no conflicts.
Lastly, jen didn't sell them the house, it was a private transaction - jenn didn't make a penny when justin bought his house
The unitarion churchs definition of the word Moderate is pretty broad, but so are the dealings of Augustine Group...
Any more free money out there..
Now that we have heard from Justin Mike morley and Jennifer Stevenson along with James Oneil lets move on and cancel oiur relations with this group.
Morley has nothing to do with this !! i'm just one of the dumb persons victimize by the cast of characters above. He asks questions some good some bad , his only problem he dosen't hide the way they do. I would like to thank people that have put 2 and 2together. I Wish someone would ask a few more questions at council meetings like bloger 10:40Hard ball is the only way to go.
4:41 you seem to be certain that you know everything about the Woods and Stevenson transaction maybe you wouldn't mind providing all that information to the newspaper. I'm sure that there must be realtor records. By the way you might want to look to see who's realtor sign is outside of Justin's house today, no surprise it is Blue Heron, I bet she won't make any money from that deal either. She needs him to leave so he won't tell all of the secrets and vice versa.
3:14 Well your very knowledgeable on what Justin and his wife did and didn't do. Almost like you were right in the midst of the entire transaction. Does your company not have a confidentiality policy whereas the applicant's income and financial information is not to be disclosed? Whose team do you play on, Ogdensburg, Blue Heron, the church or the Housing Council? You also stated that his wife got the financial backing. Did they state that they didn't reside together at the time of the purchase? I'm willing to bet they did in order to get assistance.If I'm wrong than I apologize. No matter how broad some of the programs appear, they each seem to have some guidelines with regards to income.
Also, did the church administer their own grant? If not, who is responsible for that, the Housing Council? Who was in charge cause I'd like this avenue investigated as well. Who can investigators talk to over there about this? Does the administering of tax dollars have any transparency? I think the public has a right to know where their dollars are going. Maybe not the people's names and personal information but the property addresses and dollar amount of the project would be nice.
There are only 10 or 15 people left in St. Lawrence County (all of them morons, clearly) so it makes sense that everyone is connected.
Check with the Mayor. He understands it all very well. After all, his daughter got a grant with the help of Justin Woods. He tried to get a grant for the Wades also, but they didn't qualify.
So, when Woods started to screw up, he ordered Sciorra to get rid of him, but Woods reminds him how he helped his daughter. Ooops!!
Then the Wades reminds him how his daughter got a grant, but they didn't. Ooops!!!
So, Nelson throws Sciorra under the bus to cover himself, and get re-electd by 11 votes.
Hey!!! Let's blame it all on the outsider Sciorra. It works every time with the help of The Journal.
Is there one person in the leadership of this city who is worth anything? Will the city ever be worth anything until The Journal dies?
we worked w/ becky and annette andWe disclosed all of my financial info (jenn and cw augustine had nothing to do w/ us getting a 5 k loan to help w our closing costs).
The house, mortgage and loan are in my wifes name b/c I foolishly ruined my credit in my 20s. We discolsed that I lived there, my financesan and everything here was legal and correct.
And yes, we hired Jenn to sell our house, and no she didn't represent either party when we bought it.
You know, Mike Morley has often told people to get off of HIS blog because we are ruining it by asking questions like:" HOW MUCH DID THIS DEBACLE COST US TAXPAYERS?
The funny thing is, he always disappears when we ask that question.
How much Million dollar Mike????
If you read the newspaper, you would know that this only cost us a few thousand dollars in legal fees.
7:44 pm Didn't O'neil and Ashley work for the Saint Lawrence Housing Council at that time? Wasn't Ashley the manager? Small world and then CW Augustine, Ashley and O'neil became the grant administrators in Ogdensburg? Was there a prior arrangement? It is too cozy to believe that CW Augustine, O'neil, Ashley just one day popped into your life again and you didn't remember that they worked together at the place you make payments for your house.
744 The question I would ask pertains to the mayors daughter and her boyfriend at the time.. I understand they got a house in a public auction for a good price. then I understand you set them up with a lot of grant money.. Is that fact or BS ..
BS
After cutting through the BS.I would say there is a conflict of intersst with ? The 3 people on speed dial together.
James O'Neil - Ex Boss of St. Lawrence County Housing, then worked for CW Augistine as Grant Administer for Ogd., was also Home Inspector, Ran the Contractors and Controled the Funds. in a never ending project.
Jen Ashley - Ex worker - let go from SLCH and then is working with O'Neil the old boss again.
Jen Stevenson - Sit on the Board of St.Lawrence Co. Housing , worked as realtor on the project, appraised the Homes,personal friends of the city planner, and sits on the Ogdensburg Council,and at closed informative meetings represents James O'Neil.
This is a mouth full... must have missed something ????
After watching the last 2 council meetings on channel 30 ?
Mr. Nelson's treatment was a little unfair to the Biggs and Lafave. Bill if you are a confirmed bank robber in the year 2000 while working.. are you thought of as a bank robber in 2011.Biggs story is relavent to us! Mr. Lafave's house was left structually unsound! Mr. LaFave wants a aafe structally sound house, NOT home beautiful. Mr. LaFave knew to much about construction to have been conned.
(others are prime for plucking)It's O Neils responsibly.
A lot of power was handed to three people and friends . Absoultly it was abuse of power!You can not be Boss- Banker -Apraiser-Realtor- Home Selector Builder -Inspector - Public Servant. This group should no longer exist! Insider trading is a better example...
A "few thousand dollars" if we "read the paper"??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? THAT IS A LIE!!!
Read the same paper you have in your back pocket? In the fall, you would lie. Then, after that they'd put it in quotes, and later print it as fact. Remember all those interviews Mike, when other councilors like Skamperle and Vaugh were refused interviews?
How much Mike? How much for the attorneys? How much for the settlement? How much for Cosmo? How much to search for a new CM?
Listen up VOTERS and TAXPAYERS of Ogdensburg. Don't ask representatives like Mr. Morley any questions. He does not see it as your right. He'll let you know what to believes in the newspaper so they can spin a story about it.
Will we ever see the day when Morley, Nelson, and The Journal are gone or will Ogdensburg always be the armpit of the North country?
Mike hasnt worked in years due to an injury. Some people look down at him because of it but remember dont wish for what you dont want. Until this last election I have thought Mike represented the people one on one very well. He listened to complaints and looked into them and checked the matter out.. It ruffled feathers at city hall at times and Nelson would get upset with him for stirring the status quo pot.. Now hes gone adrift.. He follows Nelsons every lead like little Nick did.. Dont do that Mike.... Storm, Jen and Bill will do that we dont need you doing it...
I dont believe its BS about the mayors daughter getting a grant.. If she qualified thats fine, if she didnt that needs to be investigated.. Justine Woods finding it for her and helping her get it is suspect especially when theres a whole lot of people out their who qualify..
I know the mayors son was hired and that was pure wrong but of course Sciorra who did it so it cleared nepotisim laws.. I know Nelson is living in Lisbon but maintains a city address so he can hold on to his job and thats wrong.. His lobby position on state pensions is totally against the wishes of the majority of the populas of the city and surrounding area..
Mike.. Get back to doing a good job again and start questioning some of the BS thats going on and for sure get out of the CW Augustine delima Oh hell there I go agian giving the spelling freAK A REASON TO WRITE..
O-BOY its the Morley & Nelson hater !! Do you think we missed you? If the paper tells lies so don't you on this blog ! This blog is also run by the newspaper!I know you need to vent because of Doctors orders. Most of us on the blog would like to stick to the point! Thank You for your comments Plug Nickel .....
If you go or watch the meetings you would find out Morley is top questioner and is not in Nelson's cornor. Nelson is sweeping and Mikes questioning . Wayne is pokeing around But the rest have to get more interested.
The taxpayer's need some hard answers and some true results. Enough of the politics and backdoor transactions!!
No matter who did the grants wrong, where is the investigation by the people who give out the grants?
Where is the special committee appointed by the governor to oversee these grants? The same committee Mr. O'Neil bad mouthed in the paper.
Where is the Charities Bureau who are to govern the Not For Profits like SLCHC and the Unitarian Church?
Where is the NYS Association of Realtors to investigate the ethics of the common agent in a lot of these buyer projects?
And where in the heck is the State Attorney General and the IRS?
Surely, we can not be expected to believe that these groups in St Lawrence County and Ogdensburg are above the law.
You are welcome. A few months ago when Mike was controlling this blog,another blogger asked Mike to confirm the amount spent. He has never gotten around to it, except tp say "a few thousand". Well MIKE THE CONFIRMER, PLEASE CONFIRM EXACTLY HOW MUCH.
As far as Mike being a great guy goes, he is one of the most sneaky mean spirited politicians we have EVER had in the BURG.
I'll give him this though, Nelson went into hiding months ago, and Mike is still out here taking body shots, and calling people names.
Is it safer to get a grant through the county??
Right on 1025....if the State Attorney and the others you mention would look further than a few files to see if the person who got the grant qualified and into where the heck $ 200K on the rehab money for buildings now worth 90K total really went I think eyes would be opened, especially Mayor Nelson....save yourself Bill call for the investigation yourself .....you can then sit back and smile for the cameras again..
10:25 those are excellent Questions ...that we need answers on.....Not politics........ concentrate on the issue!
The New Blog Says Grant Money Is Available, Oh Boy, here we go! Let's close this grant out with a bang as well because the chance of this area getting grants again soon is slim. Here is a suggestion though, Blue Heron is located on Ford Street, maybe Stevenson, our new City Councilor can work her magic with her best buddies at CW Augustine to get a face lift for her business and then have the City or County pay for her portion from the growth fund or "slush fund." She could then turn around and sell it to a first time home buyer she just "found" from her other friends at St. Lawrence Housing, making sure they get grant money of course so Blue Heron can get paid again and finally she could promise the home buyer that she can get the house/business rehabilitated from one or both of her buddies CW Augustine or St. Lawrence Housing with yet more grant money. Any way you look at it when you are Stevenson and you sit on a board,
Board of Realtors, City Council, Rotary, St. Lawrence Housing, you are entitled to free stuff, I mean income. This is how grant money really works when you have dirty players in the system. So how do you pay your kickbacks out Stevenson, are you and Augustine and St. Lawrence staff working on a cash basis or gift basis?
Golfing trips to Canada - a little 18 Holes plus cart and dinner. Trips,Hotel and Meals are nice! Snacks and Informative Meetings to discuss strategy help!
Gifts are also Great......after all it is a COZY GROUP !!!!
With all that has taken place with the NSP Grant Funding and housing rehabs in the city, most of this could have been avoided by having an independant housing commitee made up of people who have only the best interest of the city and no possiblity of financial gain. It sure wouldn't hurt to have a licensed engineer onboard as well, even if on a per diem basis. It wouldn't hurt either to have the State send someone to inspect the project books and work performed and have them be accountable and sign off on these projects, don't just leave it to the one man show James O'Neill
O'Neill gets "75 per hour of your tax dollars
so does the reverend Wiesbad but Ron
Williams is less wholly so he only gets only
$60 per hour and Jen Jen gets
$40 per hour, this is per grant agreement
for real....what or who is in your pocket
right on brutha, we be preachin now..why don't we give O'neill a code name since he likes to hide inside the wouldwurk..how about we call him "hot pockets"...that spell cheker is not going to like this one...maybe he or she can get a cool $75 per hour like hot pockets does!
woulwurk but i don't have to, I have people for that.
Some answers:
1) The grant agencies have already investigated these matters and found no wrong doing.
2) There is no 'special committee' for these grants - they came from the Division of Homes and Community Renewal before the Regional Economic Development Council was formed. DHCR has reviewed Ogdensburg's programs and given them a clean bill of help. The economic development council isn't anywhere, it is made up of individuals and chaired by Tony Collins of Clarkson University.
3) The charities Bureau doesn't apply here - Ogdensburg is a municipality and C. W. Augustine is a private, for-profit company.
4) Most of these projects were not handled by a realtor - property owners applied for the loans and had work done on houses they were living in. The NSP program applies to city-owned houses which were sold through the Planning Department independent of any realtor.
5) The state atty general won't get involved unless there is illegal activity occurring - which, so far, no one has found. I'm not sure why the IRS would be involved in a situation that has nothing to do with income taxation.
1. From what I understand, The Grant agencies have only done spot checks on certain projects. Now that some of the highlighted problem projects are coming to light, maybe they need to take another look.
2. The Governor's special committee was designed to ensure that these grants were going to be handled by capable agencies. However, this doesn't mean they can't go take a look at past/present grants. I'll find out for sure when I call them Monday.
3. The Charities Bureau does apply to SLCHC and the Unitarian Church, which is what was stated, they are getting a phone call as well. Both of these groups are not for profits that fall under their jurisdiction.
4. The mere fact that SLCHC, Ogdensburg and the County operate Homebuyer programs and the same real estate agent is involved, in some fashion, with all three programs (or both since SLCHC operates grants for the County) definitely warrants an investigation by the Ethics Committee.
5. The State Attorney General will get involved because of the Collusion and Conflict of Interest violations throughout all of this. Additionally, it appears that these projects get pushed no matter who applies and at what income level. They need to take a look and see if there are falsified income reporting for these applications. Since the IRS can run income by Social Security Numbers, it would be smart to get them to come to the table as well. And by the way, since you think you are smarter than the average person, The Charities Bureau is under control by the NYS Attorney General's Office.
I see what is going on here. You try to answer the taxpayer's concerns right here in this forum. I don't know who you think you are but your not gonna stop the taxpayers from picking up the phone and making some phone calls.
This isn't about what's done is done. That's fictitious. We want accountability and a guarantee that the same players aren't going to keep snowballing the public. They've lined their pockets and we have sat back and watched long enough.
Make some phone calls people. The more calls they get, the faster they will step up and start looking.
Charities Bureau (212) 416-8401
Attorney General Helpline: 1-800-771-7755
NYS Association of Realtors: 518.463.0300
Thanks You "Jen Stevenson and Justin:( Reprensitives of James O'Neil) for the reply..... so you are going to sit there on the council and support James O'Neil. NO Conflict??? Shame on you and the citizens of Ogdensburg that support this. No Crime????? Just slight of Hand tactics?
Jen...Don't feel bad because if Hosmer does not excuse himself of Marina District Business ... he will be catching up to your standards.
At least Mr. Morley and Mr. Ashley are asking Questions - but more help from the inside and the public is needed.
Ethics in Ogdensburg does NOT EXIST.......... I think if voters and taxpayers or as Skamperele Calls us the MOB.....gets outraged enought "need to SPEAK OUT!"......IT will get (Election Mode) Nelson off his ASS!
As a VOTER AND TAXPAYER, Thank you and My Respect to 8:34 and 8:39 !! Clean up this Debacle in Ogdensburg! Blog 8:34 that is the way to look at issues.. Thank You Again!!!
Jen Stevenson has used all her effort in DAMAGE CONTROL. BUT it only digs the hole deeper, Deeper and DEEPER!!!
This is now the OFFICAL O"NEIL
AND FRIENDS BLOG! Speak Out!
I am trying to understand this entire issue by listening to both sides. The issues and answers to them seem to point to the fact that we probably want to get out of the housing business or handle it in house..
Some of my own questions that I cant seem to get any reasonable answers to are
1. Why hasnt the mayor asked any questions? Does he understand all these issues? Since this hit the fan before the election until now he remains silent on all issues. He mouth run before the election but not since or at least for us.. Likes to talk alot when lobbying in Albany.
2. Why the meeting at the Freight House held for canidates by Jen S. Why wasnt the media invited? Why just canidates for office at that time? Seems like it would have helped if we could have attended..
3. Why wasnt council more involved with this service from Oneil.. Under Nelsons management and leadership I think larceny has been condoned.. Larceny of taxpayer money...
9;27 good Questions - In front of me is letter head from CW Augustine Oct 14 2011 ...
Dear Candidate
As you know a greal deal of controversy lately about a small portion of the city of Ogd's grant supported housing programs!... as you know there is lot of heat & smoke with little light.. I expect you as all the candadates, have been called on to comment on the subject. Blah Blah .. You do not have the factual background....we are in a position to prodvide that background ...
I am inviting you and all the candidates for city council to a Brief, Informal,OFF THE RECORD, Non-partisan briefing on the history,present and potential future of the Ogd. Housing Program....I have no interest in taking sides...will give a larger context and facts..... Join us for coffee,desert and Facts at the Freight House Oct.27at 2pm.
This is cut a little!!!
Press was not invited - but aked to and was told it was a private function !!! We were also not invited - only lawmakers?
The o'Neil group spoke ... with Stevenson addding in some of the blanks. Stevenson sent e-mails and organized!! 1st the candidates only got the letter after 4 days ( heat was applied)chosen menbers of council got e-mails.
Get back with other answers - good hunting.
I’d like to introduce myself to all of you, my name is Pat Biggs. My mailing address is 206 CR 29, Canton New York, 13617. Some of you may have seen me and my husband, Fred, at two recent City Council meetings, or you may have read some of the things we have written that have been placed on www.constructionmismanagement.org
11:05 has said he or she had a paper in front of them, and read out some of it in the blog post. Would you send me a copy of it?
All of you, please, can you get me facts? Is there anyone who attended that meeting in the Freight House and will talk about what went on there?
I’m interested in whatever you have to say, and you don’t have to sign it. Of course, I’d love it if I had notarized affidavits from everybody, but I know that a person can be far too scared to do that. I know it well.
Anything truthful you send me, whether signed or not, will teach me something so that I can get to the final facts that will (hopefully) turn out to be prove-able in a Court of Law.
If you want to write about YOUR grant project, I’d be happy to know about it. If you want to write about “informational meetings” that took place, I’d be grateful for the info.
I haven’t put a phone number in because I’m not near the phone often. Please write and/or keep on blogging.
Thank you for your help.
Nothing will be placed on any website unless you tell me you want it there.
My best advice to you Mrs Biggs is for you to contact
A. Addie Russell and make her reply public.
B. Contact Patti Ritchie and make her reply public..
C. Congressman Owens should also be contacted and make his reply public..
Locally I sugess you contact Scott Sutherland a local legislator and also any legislators you are familiar with. Dont argue with them over points of whos authority it is as it is up to all of them to at least lend your some assistance.
Then come back to the City Council in a couple of months and ask again to make a presentation.
Other non taxpayers in the past have been allowed time to speak in front of the council and I suspect you should be without having any biased , embarresed mayor cutting you off.
Again use any public formum you can to bring attention to your delimea..
Keep writing and useing the newpaper as you have in the past. You message is not falling on deaf ears just lazy politicans right now.. This is an election year so keep the heat up....
Thank you Scoopy.
Biggs -a copy of the invitation will go out in the mail to you Monday , Good Luck and thank YOU
Thank you, 7:32!
Lets get this blog back on point with information and talk on the housing debacle !
Scorria & Woods..... reccommended the CW Augustine Group.. both worked with them and supported them.
James O'neil & Jen Ashley ... ex employees of St. Lawrence Co. Housing (why were they let Go?)
...Handled the Contractors... Handled then Houseing inspections ... handled the Money.
Jen Stevenson ... Sitting on ST Lawrence Co. Housing Board.. a Realtor in the project ... an Appraiser in the project.. Advisor to C.w. Augistine group...
Also a sitting City of Ogdensburg Counclor.
Firing or let go or however you want to put it.. Our acting city manager must question these people as to the fact surrounding their departure from the county. Then do a background check with the existing council and their members.. Any employer has the right to check on anyone who seeks employment with them.. Thats what happened with Sciorra and Woods.. No real investigative check done..
If they dont want to devulge any information to Cosmo voluntarily then thats their right but dont hire them that the citys right..
What happend to Nelsons fight and fire mode that he had before the election. He was going to get to the bottom of things and the manager had to go because of this etc etc... Oh.... I forgot he got elected.. Now he gets to sit on his dead ass for four more years and let this stuff fester....
You were elected mayor to lead not to sweep issues under the rug and move on as you say.. We need to know whats up with this housing thing.. We need to know who got all the benefits from it.. We need to know who on the council or their families benefited from the mis management... What contractors benefited and which fleesed the city and taxpayers, which were arrested for doing that.. We need to know???????
I just read and commented on an accusation of a sex offender being the favorite contractor of CW Augustines Oneil..
I know for a fact that Handyman for Hire was the most popular choice of Oneil when at the SLCHA and the man charged outrageous rates and only did fair to average work. His response to calls on complaints was zero.. Once he left a job that was it...
Mrs. Biggs.. Did you have this company work on your house and were you satisfied with his work..
Someone gave a persons name as the offender consistant with the owner of this company.. If I find out this is true, there will be a complaint logged immediately for not notifying the people the work was being done for..
This is more BS from Augustine and Oneil....
O'Neill himself, as Construction Management Services, built
our house. Handy Man for Hire sub-contracted for O'Neill for
certain parts of the job (furnace etc.) while O'Neill was on a
cruise to the Caribbean, with his former wife, his daughter and her boyfriend, and his son and his girlfriend. It would
be difficult to separate out which parts were done by handy man, but the architect's and engineer's reports show that just about everything was shoddy/unsafe... If you haven't
seen the reports, and are interested, they're on the website:
www.constructionmismanagement.org
Thanks.
Attention: St Lawrence County Housing Council Does not exist its Magic !!!
Its Now NORTH COUNTRY HOUSING COUNCIL 49 Main St Canton.
You talk to Andrew who replaced James O'Neil !!
Our leaders can't investigate a organization that does not exist!
here is some new news people how about the fact that the housing council bought four houses off of the county tax roll with county money, and more then one of the people sitting on the board has been paid for services with grant money, and paid people under the table to work on a building that is full of mold, these are our tax dollars hard at work and as along as we allow the people who are running the show now to continue things will not change, this is all public knowledge and so much more take a look you have the right also as far a the city of Oldenburg goes i would be asking who is selling the homes and who is handling the sale Jen im sure !!!
6;42 Am Good !
You state this is all public knowledge. Could you give us more info?
The Housing Council Bougth these 4Houses off the tax roll or tax sale? ? Year? Adresses?
Who was sitting on the Board then? All menbers? Any conflict with there regular jobs?
This MOLD project ? year? Address?
Contractos?
Was all this when oneil and ashley worked form the housing council?
Its the more info to check out the better ! We Thank You !!
the sales are public record they we purchased in the fall of 2010, the board members are also public knowledge, and yes Stevenson was sitting on the board just call the housing council and ask for a list of board members, a board member hired his son and some friends to do clean up, the money came from grants( tax payer money) no Ashley was not involved she has already been fired oniel im not sure about, oh and by the way as long as we are asking lets find out why she was allowed to purchase insurance for her son with grant money
On their website WWW.SLCHC.ORG you can see:
1. A news article confirming the home purchases mentioned above.
2. That Jen Stevenson is a current board member.
3. That David Weissbard is also a current board member.
Also of note: David Weissbard was recently quoted in the Journal,
and the article stated that he was a grant application writer
for none other than C.W. Augustine Inc. HMMMM...
Thanks to everyone who has sent information to me. Each piece of the puzzle makes a clearer picture. Thanks for springing for the stamps, too. :-)
From what I've learned and what I've heard of this entire ordeal, Justin Woods was being paid a city salary and sitting back a letting James O'Neill/CWAugustine do his entire job, with the blessing of the city manager. Go to Ogdensburg.org and check out his job duties as the Dir. Planning & Developement per the City Municipal Code, while you're at it check out the duties of the Comptroller, he's got even more responsibilty in this whole mess because he holds the purse strings and has the duty of knowing where the money went, besides in O'Neill's pocket!! This entire mess needs to be audited, investigated, and prosecuted!! It's become very apparent that this city governemnt i.e. the Mayor, Comptroller, and various City councelors are anything but "TRANSPARENT", they either gag the public from speaking out the truth or choose to sit there mute when asked questions that require answers of this most perplexing of issues. I happend to notice that the question came up about the lack of published councel minutes, as of the Feb. 13th public hearing, yeah, where are they? Someone must not want the public to keep up with what's been going on and keep this whole thing in the dark as long as possible. It's time the light was shown onto this circus under the "Bib Top"!.. Pinky & The Brain
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